The Castle Rock MARE-TERNITY WARD

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down

Author Topic: NEW FILLY!! - "JYNX"  (Read 1674 times)

paintponylvr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 586
    • LP Painted Ponys
Re: NEW FILLY!! - "JYNX"
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2016, 08:38:24 AM »

Retaining her yes - as a future driving pony.  For breeding?  Prob not...  read the info I've researched on the cryptorchid stuff so far.  Since they don't know how it passes, she could be a carrier that would pass it directly to her sons...  It's just not known.  Don't know that I want to spend the time/$$ and have colts born that are crypt or fillies that can pass it on (& not known until used for breeding herself)...

I was recommended on the double crypt colt (Riddler) to have him tested for testosterone (wow, does the $$ vary for that! for some it is cheaper to just do the surgery, LOL.) and also to do an abdominal ultrasound BEFORE we even think about opening him up.

Dr Eaton says possible hermaphrodite - tho very, very rare.  Or no testicles at all - also very rare.

And of course could just wait on Riddler.  Toro (Jynx's sire is single crypt and at 5 1/2 yrs of age, not likely to drop now.  We were all feeling a fatty deposit, not a testicle).

Thanx all for your comments on this little girl.  Overall, I've been very pleased with the foals we've had this year.  Just not sure where to go next - there are definitely days when I'm in a complete funk when it comes to continuing on w/ breeding - even on a very limited basis.  This cryptorchid issue actually affects all of the lines we currently have in one way or another and it's disappointing to say the least. 

The worst is that most folks are telling me we deal with the ones that are and continue on with breeding <the same lines>.  That makes me tend to believe that cryptorchidism will never be ended and will/can pop up in the future as HUGE surprises.  I'm not thrilled with that idea AT ALL.

Logged
Paula Hoffman
LP Painted Ponys
Cameron, NC

Silver City Heritage Farm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 294
  • Look out 2017, here we come!!
Re: NEW FILLY!! - "JYNX"
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2016, 08:30:55 PM »

And that Paula, is what for me separates an old-timey--and for me more real--breeder from the new fashioned one. An old-fashioned breeder CULLED. Since wikipedia is quite popular these days, I've quoted their definition of cull first:

"Since livestock is bred for the production of meat or milk, the herd must be culled to a certain number of production or meat animals a farmer wishes to maintain.  Animals not selected to remain for breeding are sent to the slaughter house, sold or killed."

At idioms.thefreedictionary.com their first definition is:

"Literally, to separate or remove (and usually kill) inferior animals out of a herd so as to reduce numbers or remove undesirable traits from the group as a whole."

This is the most difficult and honest thing a true, bettering the breed breeder can do. It's possible to geld colts and sell them on to working homes. Mares on the other hand....well...they're culled. Without having a genetic test one is stuck.

There is a lady who breeds Spanish Arabians (and I can't for the life of me think of her name   :-\   :-\) who always said she could never understand the American mentality of selling horses at weaning. She said the European attitude of breeders is that you keep your possible breeding stock until they're at least 3, so that you can assess for faults and then cull. As I understood it, weanlings are sold only when your program has been established to a degree that you know what produces what.

Another thing she noted was the "I'm just breeding this one for myself" that many of us do. Her point was, fewer breeders should lead to better quality animals. Fewer animals leads to buyers spending more time researching what they like and then buying animals that are bred that way. No sales would lead to some programs dying out, and theoretically leaving the best and most marketable animals behind.

I recognize that in real life it doesn't always work out this way. Daddy Big Bucks Farm spends a bazillion dollars promoting Casey Crooked-legged stallion and he's used on every mare that comes along. I believe TRUE breeders would recognize those crooked legs and stay away from them.

Yes, breeding is definitely for the stout-hearted and dedicated. Much as it's a desire I've had since my youth, I have to bow to Father Time and Shallow Pockets and stick to training.  :))

Thanks in advance for letting me steal your thread Paula!!
Logged
Silver City Heritage Farmstead

Specializing in Heritage poultry and vegetables. Miniature horses for the everyday family, until they're ready to move up to the rated shows and programs!

paintponylvr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 586
    • LP Painted Ponys
Re: NEW FILLY!! - "JYNX"
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2016, 12:36:02 AM »

To truly "cull" a horse is now almost impossible in the United States of America.  Horses, here, aren't considered livestock by the general public AND/OR by the law.  They are considered pets...  Therefore every "mistake" or genetic anomaly that happens - even when the best is bred to the best - is allowed <or can be> to continue and not just by the big breeders.

My own feelings on this subject are not making people happy around me...  BECAUSE I consider our ponies to be performance ponies AND livestock that I will choose to cull if they have undesirable defects.  One of the reasons I'm in a personal quandary over this is somewhat simple.  IF I consider them livestock and since NO ONE KNOWS if cryptorchid is carried/passed by the stallion to his son or to his daughters who then pass it down, I would normally take it to think that none of the foals sired by a crypt or is a crypt should be retained at all - and if you can't afford to castrate a crypt then how do you cull when euthanasia/slaughter/processing is not considered the way to go?  What about the mares?  Spaying is rather pricey and I didn't find anyone willing/able to do it in NC.

I would look seriously at getting Jynx spayed (not done around here - I checked on that too.  She would need to go out of state to a facility to have that done).  There is a possibility of 5 foals by Toro next spring.  Any colts with testicles will be gelded.  What to do with a colt that is not descended?  The fillies - ???  I don't consider just selling to be a good option for culling - especially for a mare whom someone else can then use for breeding.

The other colt (double crypt) is another convoluted story.  If it came from his sire, then is he able to pass it on when the stallion isn't considered a cryptorchid (wonder how testicular size plays into this - several of ours, even unrelated, have had that right testicle - the one most often retained, smaller than the left)?  IF it came from his dam, then is it also carried by her daughter who has produced a colt that was considered to be a possible crypt (the vet students DID get that retained inguinal testicle popped and removed - you were there and I know that you remember).  Will any more of this mother/daughter's sons be crypt?  Would their daughters also be able to produce it?  These two mares represent a large $$ outlay for us.  They and one of the stallions are all sired by a well known stallion in the ASPC/AMHR/AMHA world. Am I the only one to experience cryptorchidism?  The mares are making a cute set of riding ponies and one has been started in harness, with plans to start the other as well and have them working as a team.  They have wonderful, sweet dispositions and are easy to handle for families/amateurs that they have both proven to produce over the years.  I purchased them, with Larry's blessing on both, with the intention of using them to continue those lines.  The stallion was shown in 2012 and 2013 and is just a few points short of his Foundation Halter HOF.  I had major plans for him as a breeding stallion.  NOW???? 

Do I actually need to be concerned about Echo?  He is a 1/2 brother to Toro and his right testicle, while descended, is smaller than the left.  Does this have significance?  No one could answer that ? for me when I started asking.  Though each vet did admit that if a testicle is smaller, it is usually the right one.  This makes one stop and think - "hmmmm", since most often the right testicle is the one retained.  We've always planned on keeping Echo, AJ's last son and the one who is most like his sire.  I've always said I'd keep him as a gelding, too, but I have been delighted that he seems to be living up to his sire's memory.  If we do geld him and also lose our other stallion as a breeding pony, then our current program is done.  I don't have another stallion and right now, a little "gun shy" about purchasing one (as well as more than a little short on both room & $$)...

As to retaining our ponies to 3 yrs of age - well, it seems I've been doing that pretty much all along.  I've only sold three that were weanlings - and that was based on the full siblings of the same crosses - and their owners were/are very happy with them.  In the case of Koal - his new owner knew his grand sire and wanted a foal by him - that didn't work out.  She is in love with Koal's sire and has a mare that is related to Koal's dam.  Pretty sure she is quite pleased with Koal's purchase.  She is going to be having him castrated - he will be done next march - when he is about 10 months old (as far as I can tell, he's got both testicles descended now, but my confidence has been shaken there a bit, too). I have sold a few of our ponies as yearlings (and taken two of those back - to retain and/or find other homes for), but honestly most of our foals - both the purebred Shetlands and the cross-breds have been older than 3 and have been started in harness and/or under saddle before leaving our property.  Some were well proven in the open show ring and in the breed ring before selling - in halter and performance.  We can/will be retaining Riddler for a while - to see what happens.  I don't know yet if it will go until he is 3 yrs old - will depend on what happens next spring and we see how much testosterone is kicking thru his system.

Too bad that so many Shetland ponies and minis are selling for less than a steer's or cow's hide that is tanned w/ the hair on.  Too bad that horse meat is so frowned on here - it is lower in cholesterol, less fatty and slightly more sweet than beef (even grass fed - which is all the rage w/ both health conscious and permaculturists) - but that is a bad subject and I understand a bit too inflammatory here.

I know that Dr. Taylor, DVM out of OH both breeds Minis & Shetlands as well as being an equine vet.  I am in the process of talking with him.  Are there other vets out there that specialize in Minis & Shetlands - reproductively - that anyone knows of?  I'd like to talk to some more, if possible.

Seems Jynx's thread has become quite lively!!  :)
Logged
Paula Hoffman
LP Painted Ponys
Cameron, NC

dcwolcott

  • Diane Wolcott
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1958
  • Happy to see everyone!
    • Castle Rock Miniature Falabellas & American Miniatures
Re: NEW FILLY!! - "JYNX"
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2016, 11:26:53 AM »

You are seeking the right answers, and getting some good input here.

I had one stallion here who didn't drop until late -- almost a 3 year old, but when descended he did have a smaller right testicle.  I never found out if he passed that on, as he only produced fillies, which of course I loved.

I guess as a "farmer" growing up, horses are livestock to me, too, not pets, and they have a purpose -- either in a breeding program or an activities program.  So, I understand culling out those that don't fit the program or have issues.  My way to save $$ was to pass on mares that "didn't fit" without their papers to 4-Hers and those that just wanted a pet.  Of course, it wasn't "fool proof" in that I'm sure some may have been bred, but I felt a little safer knowing their offspring would not be registered and purchased by a breeder.  It was the only thing I could think of to do, since I can't see the $$ involved in spaying a mare.  So, I chose that route instead.

I wish I knew where my old equine vet went.  She was fabulous, and I would have loved to hear her take on all of this.
Logged
'Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.'

Silver City Heritage Farm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 294
  • Look out 2017, here we come!!
Re: NEW FILLY!! - "JYNX"
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2017, 10:50:09 AM »

Reviving yet another thread.  ;)

It is interesting to read the comments on the right testicle smaller/retained. From a physical point of view I suppose it makes a bit of sense. Same size inguinal opening + smaller testicle = easier to slid back into abdomen.

This whole subject would make a great beginning to a "Breeders' Mentoring " forum, wouldn't it? All kind of decisions making processes could be discussed, from this issue to deciding who to breed to whom, to conformation critiques.

As far as Jynx herself, how is she coming along? You've not been well enough to really do many updates, particularly since 2016 gave you quite a few wallops right there at the end. (Not to mention a couple more parting shots into 2017.)

We'd sure like to know how they're doing in this, their first winter.
Logged
Silver City Heritage Farmstead

Specializing in Heritage poultry and vegetables. Miniature horses for the everyday family, until they're ready to move up to the rated shows and programs!

paintponylvr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 586
    • LP Painted Ponys
Re: NEW FILLY!! - "JYNX"
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2017, 07:45:42 AM »

Thanx Julie!!  Glad to know we are looked after and followed, LOL!!!

Jynx is doing great!  I will try to get some pictures of her here pretty quick...  Maybe today. 

More in the other threads!!
Logged
Paula Hoffman
LP Painted Ponys
Cameron, NC
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up