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Author Topic: Horse color?  (Read 556 times)

elizabeth.conder

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Horse color?
« on: April 01, 2017, 05:57:48 PM »

Okay, it was suggested that I might ask this question here too.

So this might be a very simple question, but I was just wondering. I have a miniature mare that is 4 years old and registered as a bay. However, she definitely appears black to me, even if she is sun bleached. Her sire is a black and her dam is a palomino. When I clipped her this spring, I was prepared for a bit of a color change but I noticed her legs were much darker than the rest of her body. Is that some of the bay she is registered showing through? Or is it just normal with clipped black horses?
Fist pic is her in winter coat
Second pic is her in summer coat
Third pic is her clipped this spring, although badly clipped, due to weak clippers. (dark legs are much darker than the picture shows)
Fourth pic is one that I got permission to use from her showing days. I believe as a yearling.

And while I'm asking I might as well ask this too. I almost finished clipping my appaloosa stallion and found some interesting things. He has very white spots, offwhite spots and dark spots. I also found white hairs various other places then I was expecting. He has them almost halfway to his neck and then some on his front legs. His dam was a red roan pintaloosa and his sire was a black and white pinto. How much white do yall think he might end up with eventually?
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Holly

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2017, 07:22:25 PM »

Your mare is gorgeous!! And she may be bay, you would have to test to be sure as some are so dark they look black. Her dam being palomino could have passed a hidden agouti.  Do you have pictures of her as a foal?
As for you stallion, I suspect you will see him continue to get more white!!
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Chanda

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2017, 10:36:06 PM »

I have no clue about the appy, so can't help there and will defer to the appy specialists.

I did ask a friend that is very knowledgeable about color; shows minis and Shetlands, so knows them natural and clipped, and she is pretty sure that the mare is black (possibly smoky black, since there is no visual difference).   If it's an absolutely gotta know situation, then Red Factor, Agouti and cream will tell you for certain, although with a palomino parent, you already know the Red Factor is Ee (red-based parent can only contribute e), so just agouti and cream will tell you black, smoky black or bay.
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Chanda
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Stallions: Little Kings Cat on Top, Paper Mache`
Mares: Misty, Tana, Showy, Bonny, Dolly and Baybe
Geldings: Dakota, Monte and Manny
Donkey: Tilly

Rocklone

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2017, 03:25:26 AM »

I reckon she's a very dark brown there is a notable different in her legs and underbelly to the rest of her. My black gelding is a solid continual black all around.
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dcwolcott

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2017, 09:00:21 AM »

As to your handsome stallion, I believe what you are seeing is the "appaloosa single hair roaning" going on.  Unlike a true roan in a solid horse, where the head is usually darker with the true color, appaloosas tend to get a "single hair" roaning going on which will spread through the coat, lightening it with white hairs.  This is NOT to be confused with a horse showing a grey trait and turning white, but just the addition of single white hairs throughout the coat.  It can be quite lovely!

I'm studying the pictures of your beautiful mare before I venture a true guess, since he hasn't been tested.  I would love to have people give their opinions here, so we learn as much as possible, and then, if you'd allow me, I'd like to pay for color testing her to see how close we are to the truth.  These blacks/smoky blacks/black bays/ sooty bays/sooty buckskins can be so much fun to guess visually, and then test to find out!  Since her dam is a palomino, we can definitely have a cream gene in the mix, which I love!
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elizabeth.conder

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2017, 03:16:22 PM »

Thank you everyone for the replies!

As to your handsome stallion, I believe what you are seeing is the "appaloosa single hair roaning" going on.  Unlike a true roan in a solid horse, where the head is usually darker with the true color, appaloosas tend to get a "single hair" roaning going on which will spread through the coat, lightening it with white hairs.  This is NOT to be confused with a horse showing a grey trait and turning white, but just the addition of single white hairs throughout the coat.  It can be quite lovely!

I'm studying the pictures of your beautiful mare before I venture a true guess, since he hasn't been tested.  I would love to have people give their opinions here, so we learn as much as possible, and then, if you'd allow me, I'd like to pay for color testing her to see how close we are to the truth.  These blacks/smoky blacks/black bays/ sooty bays/sooty buckskins can be so much fun to guess visually, and then test to find out!  Since her dam is a palomino, we can definitely have a cream gene in the mix, which I love!



I think that would be a great idea, although you don't have to pay for it! I'd be more than willing to pay for it, since I was thinking about doing it anyway.
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paintponylvr

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2017, 05:44:42 AM »

I ditto what everyone else has said here, Elizabeth, plus you have my posts on the other forum.

To add though - your little fellow is super nice!  I'd love to see him again when he's "haired back in".  Also, since you list two possible pintos in his up close pedigree w/o mentioning patterns, you may want to have him tested for some of the Pinto patterns if you are planning on using him as a stallion.  LWO to know if he passes it to a foal along with a mare doing the same - results in a dead foal...  :(
LWO (Frame Overo) doesn't always show up in the phenotype (how he looks).

I myself, have a stallion I need to get tested.  He's only been tested for "general" coloration (b/r, bay, tobi) so far and then we were caught by surprise with the number of foals we had with blue eyes (some say it is a major indicator of LWO or Frame Overo). 
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Paula Hoffman
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elizabeth.conder

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2017, 08:59:32 AM »

I ditto what everyone else has said here, Elizabeth, plus you have my posts on the other forum.

To add though - your little fellow is super nice!  I'd love to see him again when he's "haired back in".  Also, since you list two possible pintos in his up close pedigree w/o mentioning patterns, you may want to have him tested for some of the Pinto patterns if you are planning on using him as a stallion.  LWO to know if he passes it to a foal along with a mare doing the same - results in a dead foal...  :(
LWO (Frame Overo) doesn't always show up in the phenotype (how he looks).

I myself, have a stallion I need to get tested.  He's only been tested for "general" coloration (b/r, bay, tobi) so far and then we were caught by surprise with the number of foals we had with blue eyes (some say it is a major indicator of LWO or Frame Overo).

Thank You. Is it okay if I post a link to their page or something? Then I could also what you think?
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elizabeth.conder

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2017, 09:59:28 AM »

All of my mares are a solid color and out of solid colored parents, so I don't 'think' that's something I'd have an issue with immediately. But I don't know a lot about pinto/tobiano/paints. I've really only had experience with solid colors. However I have a friend who has a mare that is a pinto that was thinking about breeding to him. So I might have to test him anyway.
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Chanda

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2017, 10:05:04 AM »

I've only tested my stallions for LWO, they were negative, so I haven't tested the mares.  Baybe is tested and negative, as she came from a place with a positive stallion.
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Chanda
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Stallions: Little Kings Cat on Top, Paper Mache`
Mares: Misty, Tana, Showy, Bonny, Dolly and Baybe
Geldings: Dakota, Monte and Manny
Donkey: Tilly

dcwolcott

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2017, 05:28:57 PM »

Elizabeth, certainly post the link.   ;)
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elizabeth.conder

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 05:46:55 PM »

Ok,

Sire
http://www.littleamericaminis.com/stallions/secret.html

Dam
She is about half way down the page, Little America's Xenon Pianissimo
http://www.littleamericaminis.com/mares/mares6.html
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 Little Americas Secrets Crescendo-31

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 Rocky Top Aristocratic Belle Star-32
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paintponylvr

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2017, 11:33:33 AM »

Those are some nice horses!!

They "look" tobiano.  Here is the one of mine that is tested homozygous for both bay & tobiano.  He now needs to be tested for LWO, SB1 & Splash 1 (2,3 & 4 are currently only specific lines of stock breeds & TB).





and pics of our homozygous black/homozygous tobiano stallion - clipped and haired -

2000 - head shot only - body shots didn't turn out at all -



2005 - body shots only







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Paula Hoffman
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paintponylvr

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2017, 11:49:37 AM »

The pic of AJ above, taken in 2005 is showing a little "red" in his ribcage area and in his tail. 

In 2008 is when he really turned "red", but the pics don't look nearly as "red" as I remember!





AJ was always, all his life once we purchased him in 1995 @ 3 yrs of age, outside with no stall access to the barn EXCEPT during 1 blizzard in January 2004 in NC.  He sheltered between/behind round hay bales or in the trees.  A couple of years he did get blanketed when he lost a significant amount of weight himself as he aged.

26 December 2010



11 January 2011 -



The snow above both melted and got rained on, turning to solid sheets of ice.  We were lucky, none of our ponies broke anything - tho many didn't move much.  A lot of the neighboring farms DID - limbs & rib cages when slipping and falling!



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Paula Hoffman
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elizabeth.conder

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Re: Horse color?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2017, 12:01:23 PM »

So if I were to test both the stallion and the mare, what should I test for to cover everything?
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 Little Americas Secrets Crescendo-31

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