The Castle Rock MARE-TERNITY WARD

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism  (Read 279 times)

paintponylvr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 586
    • LP Painted Ponys
? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« on: September 18, 2016, 10:11:12 PM »

Diane, Holly and others -

This one is long - stating some history, stating current happenings and then asking my questions & going into what I'm looking at doing.  Grab that cuppa "java" or maybe even something much stronger - you may need it!  Your feet may not be up for long, LOL.

I've been breeding Shetland ponies and Shetland pony X's for 21 years now (and other breeds of horses before that).  We have had small numbers overall, though, with some years no foals at all.  I've bred a total of 16 stud colts sired by 4 stallions and had a handful of others that arrived either at the side of a purchased mare or in utero.  I don't remember the number of colts we had when we were raising Paint horses when I was a youth (but our fillies out numbered the colts).

Until now, I've always had our stallions/colts with no problems.  ALL of our colts have had two noticeable testicles "down" at birth, but at least a couple of vets have mentioned that some of them were "hard to find" while standing later at older ages for checking before drugging them for castration.  The last 2 taken to the Vet School were questioned until drugging/relaxed and suddenly - "OH, there they are".

Friday, i took two male equine to the Vet school - where vet students were to castrate them for us.  The older one, 2011 model, was determined to have a very small, somewhat "squishy" right side testicle by two different students, then later was found to be a cryptorchid (no one is exactly sure what the two were feeling OR what I'd felt previously when I checked).  The just 2 weeks short of being 1 year old colt was determined to be a double cryptorchid (honestly, I hadn't checked him since he was foaled- he was a "we have an extra spot, can you fill it?" take to an appointment.  I do know that he is developing studly characteristics and CAN get a full erection and was trying to breed mares at 9 months of age).  This was after being drugged to get them to relax and then checked by the two vet instructors, as well as the 5 students. 

To have them castrated at the vet school would be between $800 - 1,500 per pony.  I was told to check with other Vet hospitals to see who may have a surgical suite and what prices they would charge and what the possible after care would look at (it may be full abdominal surgery, after all, especially for the double crypt - they were not in the inguinal canal and would need US/MRI or? to determine where they are located on both ponies).  I haven't had the chance to do that yet - I only know of one vet personally that has a surgical suite - I worked for her off/on & rented pasture from her for 7 years when we first moved back to NC with the ponies.  Her cost for an eye removal was significantly less than anyone else's, so we shall see.

The one, Toro, was a mature stallion that I sold as a two year old (and to the best of my memory, he did have 2 testicles - at least what I thought were 2 testicles but yes, I knew that one was smaller).  He was returned to us in late February 2016 from the family that had purchased him - they just couldn't handle him. They hadn't gotten him castrated and he'd become not just a "blithering idiot", but a dangerous pony for their family since they didn't have him separated from their other horses/ponies.  It was quite interesting when he came home - my farrier was even very surprised as she'd worked with him pretty extensively from birth to two years of age.  But now I have a little more understanding as to the "possible" problem - too much testosterone as well as incorrect handling/complete lack of training.  Trust me, his two full brothers were nothing like him BUT both were castrated before 2 years of age w/o a problem.  They are both great family ponies.  If it comes down thru the mare lines, then it ends with him - IF we then deal with any foals(to include mares, IMO) we may have next spring.  His sire had two testicles - though at the end of his years one was smaller - pretty sure they were the same size before his breeding accident.

**************************

HAVE any of you had this issue?  Did you have it in multiple horses/ponies w/i the same lines?  If so, did you feel it came from stallion/sire, the mare OR a combination of both?  Did you breed enough horses to figure it out? 

It seems that no vets agree on this one (similar to the "sticky" stifle issue) - some feel it does carry in some stallion lines others feel it comes down from sire thru mare lines... 

I haven't looked it up yet with ASPC, but do know that other full size horse registries will revoke registration rights/papers and refuse to register foals out of stallions that are found to be cryptorchid. 

In days of old, where I came from originally, those stallions were euthanized and so were many of their offspring.  For followers of the "mare" line theories, daughters of the crypt stallions were removed from breeding pools and/or were also euthanized.  The breeders I dealt with did this routinely - the horses were not kept and "lied" about...  They were removed from breeding pools.

I was told at the Vet School, by one of the instructor Vets, that these days - especially if the colt is a highly bred colt that is "going somewhere" or already doing well/promising on the track, that they get used - possibly extending this "defect" deeper into our breeding lines of current day horses.  I was also told that others have had their vets remove the one "showing" testicle and have passed the horse off as a gelding (he shouldn't be fertile w/ a retained testicle, but would have plenty of testosterone) - which creates a whole slew of other problems IMHO.

*****************************

What am I going to do now?  Well, we've been hit by a lot these last 4 years.  My hubby is at wit's end when it comes to the ponies.  If he had his way - they'd all be gone tomorrow - no matter how they go.  I'm walking a rather fine line and a while back he did make jokes regarding divorce due to too many horses.  It's no longer a joking matter, so to speak.  SIGH.   :'(

Personally, Toro is NOT stallion quality.  Before I sold him, I did have him set up for a castration.  It was understandably cancelled, w/ the understanding that he'd be castrated by another vet with his new owner.  I don't really know if he was ever seen by another vet or not...  After he returned, he did end up covering some of our mares and I think that of those, a couple are in foal (maybe?).  I don't feel that with today's market in our area, Toro is going to have that surgery. Right now, we have other fees/bills we need to pay and a couple of procedures coming up ourselves.  He will be euthanized sometime in Oct/Nov.  Until then, he is in our roundpen with a mare that I believe he has settled in foal.  He's happy and he has become quite manageable though he hasn't returned to his previous, non-stallion personality and he is not a friendly pony at all.  He is very, very like his dam - Magic...  His 3 full siblings (2 colts and a filly) were like their sire.

Riddler ....  is a quandary. His registration paperwork hadn't been sent in yet - required some different info and some extra fees (some of you may remember that I wasn't sure who may have sired him...).  Now, I won't need to send it in.  I'm glad I hadn't sent in the tail hair for color testing (had it in an envelope - took it out Friday, will just be sending in Chylly's now).  Riddler, himself, is a very "sweet" pony.  With a lot less handling than some of our other ponies, he's a pretty unflappable, lovable boy.  He's much less re-active then some - willing to leave all four hooves on the ground rather than take off - a trait I'm happy to have in ANY of our ponies and am really happy to have "it back"...  Some of ours were really not family friendly w/o a lot of intensive handling and schooling.  He is worth the surgery cost - even to ourselves for me as a driving pony and as a possible mount for our grandchildren - IF we can come up with the $$ to cover the surgery when we need to do it.  We've determined that we'll wait another 6 months - in MAR/APR of 2017 when he'll go back up to the Vet School to be checked and HOPEFULLY be able to get castrated.  I was told not to hold my breath, as they don't believe he will drop them between now and then.

AND here is the rest of the problem.  This possibly affects our whole last 21 years of breeding Shetland ponies AND continuing on with it...

Echo, sired by WF Action Jackson, is Toro's 1/2 brother.  He is the last son of AJ.  He DOES have two testicles (LOL - I CHECKED on Friday evening when i was feeding!) BUT one is quite a bit smaller than the other.  Makes me wonder, but at least I'm figuring that that means he is NOT cryptorchid AND should not be able to pass on cryptorchidism.  Right??   >:D

Riddler, we believe, is sired by Wizard (who has both testicles).  He is out of 'Clipse.  If this comes down from the sire thru the mare line - than 'Clipse is the one who is carrying the cryptorchid issue.  But here is the "kicker"...  Wizard is by the same stallion as 'Clipse AND she was bred back to her sire to produce Cheri, another mare that we own.  One of the ponies that was previously "questioned" as to being a cryptorchid or not, is out of Cheri (by a stallion with totally different lines, thankfully).  But this makes me wonder about ALL 3 OF THESE PONIES - whom have been a major investment for us since 2012 when I purchased the first one AND all of whom are sired by a well known stallion of significance in both the Shetland and the Miniature world...

*****************

OK, I'm ready for my drink now and I have to go give Kechi her night feed.  Kechi and Jynx are doing FANTASTIC.  Wish I understood what happened on that "front"!!
Logged
Paula Hoffman
LP Painted Ponys
Cameron, NC

Chanda

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1441
  • When life hands you scraps, make quilts.
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2016, 11:36:57 PM »

Well, I did read it all, and unfortunately, don't have answers for you.
I don't know how it's inherited. I've heard direct inheritance from sire, and I've heard carried through the mare line, I just don't know and I'm not sure vets know either.
If you can find one, I think I'd have an old school vet take a look at your suspected crypt stallions in the spring when they are most likely to be proud of their jewels and have them down, and not tucked up tight waiting on winter.   [Perhaps have the one colt looked at sooner, and perhaps save him.   I've heard of hormone therapy of some sort working to help testicles drop, but I don't recall details or if I even heard it right.]   My FIL gelds his own (or did when he was younger and able), and he had a few suspected crypts that when thrown and turned upside down did pop up the missing testicle. I recall him telling about one, that he wasn't strong enough to hold onto the testicle and get it cut, the muscle or whatever that pulls them up was that strong; he had help and he got it done (one guy held on and the other cut).    I do know that they can run testosterone tests on questionable stallions and see if their levels are above normal.
With the acceptance of minis dropping late, I don't see the registrations being that worried about crypts siring foals.  Know show stallions have them checked, and those might get theirs revoked as an official would be checking them at shows; but many unshown stallions sire foals, and they aren't often seen by anyone that would turn them in as crypts.  [To be honest, I don't go around looking at testicles when I'm looking at horses; unless I'm looking specifically for a stallion prospect, so I probably wouldn't notice if a stallion wasn't dropped.]
Spotty had two loud and proud when he was born and for a few weeks at least; this morning when I trimmed Tana's hooves, I took a look at spotty's and looked and didn't see his, but I did have his leg lifted so could have made a difference in how they appeared.
Logged
Chanda
HC Minis

Stallions: Little Kings Cat on Top, Paper Mache`
Mares: Misty, Tana, Showy, Bonny, Dolly and Baybe
Geldings: Dakota, Monte and Manny
Donkey: Tilly

dcwolcott

  • Diane Wolcott
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1958
  • Happy to see everyone!
    • Castle Rock Miniature Falabellas & American Miniatures
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2016, 05:58:57 AM »

I've read the whole report too.  The registration is not an issue, the miniature registries do not revoke for crypt problems. Unfortunately, I'm not much help here, as I've never had a crypt stallion, nor any problems with this, and actually never had a stallion gelded here.

I'll be watching this with interest, and wonder if Anna can help us here? 

I've heard it comes from the sire, and those that say the mare, but don't really know the answer.  The one thing I can say, is that I, too, would recommend an old school vet if you can find one.  I know a couple of people who were told "crypt" who once the stallion was flipped, low and behold, the old vet found both!  Saved a fortune in surgery costs. 

Headed for work, but I'll be back to read this evening.
Logged
'Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.'

Holly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1216
    • Siana Miniature Horses
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2016, 11:33:17 AM »

I know some ponies can take a long time to fully drop, Had a friend with one take n2-3 years to drop fully and mature ( size wise ) ( miniature stallion, went on to produce with no issues) But alas I am also unable to answer more than that.
I will point you in the best direction I know of .... Equine Reproduction,
https://www.facebook.com/groups/EquineRepro/   ( Jos Mottershead)
Logged
live barn cam :
http://holly.camstreams.com/
713 775 2285
Siana Miniature Horses
Sianaminiaturehorses.webs.com

dcwolcott

  • Diane Wolcott
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1958
  • Happy to see everyone!
    • Castle Rock Miniature Falabellas & American Miniatures
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2016, 05:56:06 PM »

Holly, you are right.  I've heard of some miniature stallions taking up to 3 years to fully drop.  So, just hoping he gets things moving "down" !!
Logged
'Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.'

Ryan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1016
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2016, 11:24:53 PM »

My little guy took three years to fully drop. He is now an 8yo and one of his jewels sits slightly higher than the other.

Im really interested in what you can find out Paula :)
Logged

Anna

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 127
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2016, 03:07:47 AM »

Sorry folks, but I cant help with this situation.  Never had any 'problems' of this sort with the boys we have bred.  However most of our colt foals have been sold before their second birthdays so have probably/certainly been gelded in their new homes.  Those that we have kept have developed normally, some taking longer than others.  I think that you might be advised to leave your younger boy until well into next summer Paula to show what he is hiding, maybe thinking about gelding next Autumn instead of early next Spring (as he seems to have such an easy going nature)?  Good luck with whatever you decide.  :D
Logged

paintponylvr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 586
    • LP Painted Ponys
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2016, 06:34:55 PM »

Thank you for all who read my frustrating tale!  It's discouraging, to say the least - especially when we've had so many things happen since we've moved into this new property.

Thank you also - we may wait on Riddler longer next summer to see how he does.  Right now, he's certainly not a problem and he's running with the boys in the boys pasture (w/ a small arab mare, too). 

There were no male vet students, no male techs around and all of the young ladies quite fell in love with Riddler!  It was hilarious, made for a better day, LOL.
Logged
Paula Hoffman
LP Painted Ponys
Cameron, NC

paintponylvr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 586
    • LP Painted Ponys
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2017, 08:10:41 AM »

So, time to continue this long saga AND it's getting WEIDER!!

I was contacted about this springs' 2 (!!) dates from NCSU on April 3rd or 10th.  They had switched to Mondays - and I can't get away on Mondays w/o major notice/planning, so was not able to commit to either of those.  Then the vet who owns the S/N clinic (who used to be my farm vet) sent me a text over the weekend that the Vet Tech program in Sanford at Central Carolina Community College had a large class of techs that the vet wanted to castrate a horse for.  To have them watch a field procedure, to deal with asking an owner specific ?s, dealing with drugs & safely laying down a larger animal, keeping them asleep during the procedure and then safely waking them up.  I knew that Koal needed to be done and was pretty sure that Vicki wouldn't have a problem with it, so I quickly said YES, once I knew it was a date I would either be off or could take off.

In prep for it, 2 weeks ago, I hauled Koal to the vets and got his first coggins and rabies vaccine.  I had the vet give him his WN/EWT vax since I didn't have any yet and wasn't positive I'd be able to order it in time.  That was a bit of a surprise - cost me almost $30 more than I order them for and more than I was expecting.  But it's done and it's on paper/proof.  She checked him and took a while for her to "find" the 2nd one, she stated it was "up high" but it was there.  So I figured we were good to go.

I texted the contact re: taking Riddler to have him checked and it was approved so I was pretty excited.  I had checked all the boys in the boys' paddock and didn't find any lice, so felt confident that all was OK on that front. 

Yesterday arrived and off we went. Pulled Riddler out of the pasture - WOW - only caught a handful of times since last September, and I walked right up to him, haltered and led him out!  I used a pair of scissors to trim a bridlepath (mane long/thick/wooly!) and looked again - very "dandruffy" but saw no sign of lice.  Much shorter drive than going all the way to Raleigh!  Both colts have had several trailer rides now, some leading work and standing tied work, but not a lot.  Our two grand daughters are on Spring Break, so they went with me and Vicki.  While we waited for the class to arrive/get ready - we spent time grooming both boys. I was disappointed when I went in and did work on that wooly mane of Riddler's though - he does have the lice!  In fact later, when the class came over and took a look at him, two students took "samples" and I will be getting pictures and a write-up when they figure out what type of lice it is.  He was combed thru and "dug into" on the body, spine, head of his tail and nothing found there - just in his mane.

Koal is 11 months old and Riddler is 18 months old.

Riddler was also checked by the students, the contact employee and then the vet - no joy.  His testicles are not in evidence anywhere at all.  KICKER - his right inguinal ring is closing down - even IF we do some things to help/encourage it to drop, it may not be able to come thru the ring as it may no longer be large enough for it to "fit".  The left one is significantly larger and the vet didn't feel it would be an issue at all.  The rings closing is a natural occurrence according to the vet - yet in all my years of raising horses, this has not ever been discussed.  I knew that they came down thru the rings but never realized that the rings themselves actually close up... 

Then Koal was checked.  Again no problem with the left testicle.  The right one, thought several students who checked, was up high.  But when the contact/employee checked she shook her head, she wasn't so sure.  When the vet checked, she shook her head no.  Then discussion started.  She stated that what they were all feeling is the head of the Epididymis, not the actual testicle.  While she did state that we could do the surgery in the field, it was less likely to be fully done and some tissue could be left behind ("proud cut") and he could/would display stallion characteristics.

Then we were told about HCG - a drug normally used on mares.  It will increase the production of testosterone and MAYBE help with bringing down the single testicle for Koal and maybe both on Riddler (less likely due to "ring" issue AND his now more mature age).  ALSO - to be prepared as HCG increases testosterone production - both boys would become instant, could be ugly, stallions - w/ all the full blown characteristics and in Koal's case the ability to get the one mare that Vicki owns pregnant.  In the end the vet was totally surprised that NCSU hadn't discussed that with me - if he'd had the treatment last fall, he may have been ready by now.  When told the expected cost and the procedure (I can give it IM), I said yes.  It's a scrip that she stated was less than $100 and was enough to treat both colts - due to their mini size(s).  It's given and then you wait - 3-6 months - so next fall they'd either be ready or they wouldn't be.  Riddler - she was not sure it would work for, due to the closing/very small inguinal ring on the right side.

THEN I got home and looked it up....  The only drug I found was about $400 plus shipping.  It was packaged different than what she described.  IF NCSU did talk to me about it - cost MIGHT have been an issue - but I simply don't remember even discussing it.  So now - we are stuck again.  With 3 - one of whom was originally felt to be OK.  I won't be able to do the drug this payday at that price, could do partial payment on an account and then pay the rest & order later.  We'd still have the almost full 5 months before NCSU's next "gelding party" or longer if do through a regular vet.

I'm even more FRUSTRATED!! 
Logged
Paula Hoffman
LP Painted Ponys
Cameron, NC

dcwolcott

  • Diane Wolcott
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1958
  • Happy to see everyone!
    • Castle Rock Miniature Falabellas & American Miniatures
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2017, 10:02:00 AM »

Good heavens.  I'm going to have to re-read this again to make sure I'm understanding it all.  Meanwhile, perhaps we could all look for the HCG at different places and with different vets, and see if we could find the drug cheaper for you.  I'm game!

Is there any special HCG that you're needing? Dosage? Strength?
Logged
'Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.'

paintponylvr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 586
    • LP Painted Ponys
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2017, 01:06:17 PM »

The vet at the school said that it would only come in a vial and would be more than enough to treat both colts (w/ left over, sigh - due to them not being all that large).  She said that it was about $80 and that they usually get it from Valley Vet.  I wonder if, since they deal with other livestock, she was talking about the livestock side, not the Equine side - which is where I checked last night/this morning (didn't think of that 'till I was signing off this morning)...

I don't yet know what the exact dosage would be - she was going to calculate it, call in the 'scrip and then have me order it.  $80 is do-able next week.  $400???  Ummmm....  She was thinking each dose was going to be less then 1 ML, given several times over a one or two week period.  Then wait the 3-6 months. 
Logged
Paula Hoffman
LP Painted Ponys
Cameron, NC

Chanda

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1441
  • When life hands you scraps, make quilts.
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2017, 07:01:01 PM »

Logged
Chanda
HC Minis

Stallions: Little Kings Cat on Top, Paper Mache`
Mares: Misty, Tana, Showy, Bonny, Dolly and Baybe
Geldings: Dakota, Monte and Manny
Donkey: Tilly

paintponylvr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 586
    • LP Painted Ponys
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2017, 10:41:34 PM »

YES, that is what she described!  I hadn't gotten as far as looking for it that way.  THANK YOU.

That's even less than what she stated, again, that's very do-able.
Logged
Paula Hoffman
LP Painted Ponys
Cameron, NC

Chanda

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1441
  • When life hands you scraps, make quilts.
Re: ? for breeders re: cryptorchid-ism
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2017, 10:44:05 PM »

YES, that is what she described!  I hadn't gotten as far as looking for it that way.  THANK YOU.

That's even less than what she stated, again, that's very do-able.
Sometimes google is our friend.   ;)

It's on Valley vet, too, but listed as cattle (made it sound like cattle only in their description).

Here's the search I did for HCG on Valley Vet:  https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_search_results.html?gas=HCG
Logged
Chanda
HC Minis

Stallions: Little Kings Cat on Top, Paper Mache`
Mares: Misty, Tana, Showy, Bonny, Dolly and Baybe
Geldings: Dakota, Monte and Manny
Donkey: Tilly
Pages: [1]   Go Up