The Castle Rock MARE-TERNITY WARD
Message Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: elizabeth.conder on April 01, 2017, 05:57:48 PM
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Okay, it was suggested that I might ask this question here too.
So this might be a very simple question, but I was just wondering. I have a miniature mare that is 4 years old and registered as a bay. However, she definitely appears black to me, even if she is sun bleached. Her sire is a black and her dam is a palomino. When I clipped her this spring, I was prepared for a bit of a color change but I noticed her legs were much darker than the rest of her body. Is that some of the bay she is registered showing through? Or is it just normal with clipped black horses?
Fist pic is her in winter coat
Second pic is her in summer coat
Third pic is her clipped this spring, although badly clipped, due to weak clippers. (dark legs are much darker than the picture shows)
Fourth pic is one that I got permission to use from her showing days. I believe as a yearling.
And while I'm asking I might as well ask this too. I almost finished clipping my appaloosa stallion and found some interesting things. He has very white spots, offwhite spots and dark spots. I also found white hairs various other places then I was expecting. He has them almost halfway to his neck and then some on his front legs. His dam was a red roan pintaloosa and his sire was a black and white pinto. How much white do yall think he might end up with eventually?
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Your mare is gorgeous!! And she may be bay, you would have to test to be sure as some are so dark they look black. Her dam being palomino could have passed a hidden agouti. Do you have pictures of her as a foal?
As for you stallion, I suspect you will see him continue to get more white!!
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I have no clue about the appy, so can't help there and will defer to the appy specialists.
I did ask a friend that is very knowledgeable about color; shows minis and Shetlands, so knows them natural and clipped, and she is pretty sure that the mare is black (possibly smoky black, since there is no visual difference). If it's an absolutely gotta know situation, then Red Factor, Agouti and cream will tell you for certain, although with a palomino parent, you already know the Red Factor is Ee (red-based parent can only contribute e), so just agouti and cream will tell you black, smoky black or bay.
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I reckon she's a very dark brown there is a notable different in her legs and underbelly to the rest of her. My black gelding is a solid continual black all around.
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As to your handsome stallion, I believe what you are seeing is the "appaloosa single hair roaning" going on. Unlike a true roan in a solid horse, where the head is usually darker with the true color, appaloosas tend to get a "single hair" roaning going on which will spread through the coat, lightening it with white hairs. This is NOT to be confused with a horse showing a grey trait and turning white, but just the addition of single white hairs throughout the coat. It can be quite lovely!
I'm studying the pictures of your beautiful mare before I venture a true guess, since he hasn't been tested. I would love to have people give their opinions here, so we learn as much as possible, and then, if you'd allow me, I'd like to pay for color testing her to see how close we are to the truth. These blacks/smoky blacks/black bays/ sooty bays/sooty buckskins can be so much fun to guess visually, and then test to find out! Since her dam is a palomino, we can definitely have a cream gene in the mix, which I love!
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Thank you everyone for the replies!
As to your handsome stallion, I believe what you are seeing is the "appaloosa single hair roaning" going on. Unlike a true roan in a solid horse, where the head is usually darker with the true color, appaloosas tend to get a "single hair" roaning going on which will spread through the coat, lightening it with white hairs. This is NOT to be confused with a horse showing a grey trait and turning white, but just the addition of single white hairs throughout the coat. It can be quite lovely!
I'm studying the pictures of your beautiful mare before I venture a true guess, since he hasn't been tested. I would love to have people give their opinions here, so we learn as much as possible, and then, if you'd allow me, I'd like to pay for color testing her to see how close we are to the truth. These blacks/smoky blacks/black bays/ sooty bays/sooty buckskins can be so much fun to guess visually, and then test to find out! Since her dam is a palomino, we can definitely have a cream gene in the mix, which I love!
I think that would be a great idea, although you don't have to pay for it! I'd be more than willing to pay for it, since I was thinking about doing it anyway.
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I ditto what everyone else has said here, Elizabeth, plus you have my posts on the other forum.
To add though - your little fellow is super nice! I'd love to see him again when he's "haired back in". Also, since you list two possible pintos in his up close pedigree w/o mentioning patterns, you may want to have him tested for some of the Pinto patterns if you are planning on using him as a stallion. LWO to know if he passes it to a foal along with a mare doing the same - results in a dead foal... :(
LWO (Frame Overo) doesn't always show up in the phenotype (how he looks).
I myself, have a stallion I need to get tested. He's only been tested for "general" coloration (b/r, bay, tobi) so far and then we were caught by surprise with the number of foals we had with blue eyes (some say it is a major indicator of LWO or Frame Overo).
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I ditto what everyone else has said here, Elizabeth, plus you have my posts on the other forum.
To add though - your little fellow is super nice! I'd love to see him again when he's "haired back in". Also, since you list two possible pintos in his up close pedigree w/o mentioning patterns, you may want to have him tested for some of the Pinto patterns if you are planning on using him as a stallion. LWO to know if he passes it to a foal along with a mare doing the same - results in a dead foal... :(
LWO (Frame Overo) doesn't always show up in the phenotype (how he looks).
I myself, have a stallion I need to get tested. He's only been tested for "general" coloration (b/r, bay, tobi) so far and then we were caught by surprise with the number of foals we had with blue eyes (some say it is a major indicator of LWO or Frame Overo).
Thank You. Is it okay if I post a link to their page or something? Then I could also what you think?
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All of my mares are a solid color and out of solid colored parents, so I don't 'think' that's something I'd have an issue with immediately. But I don't know a lot about pinto/tobiano/paints. I've really only had experience with solid colors. However I have a friend who has a mare that is a pinto that was thinking about breeding to him. So I might have to test him anyway.
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I've only tested my stallions for LWO, they were negative, so I haven't tested the mares. Baybe is tested and negative, as she came from a place with a positive stallion.
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Elizabeth, certainly post the link. ;)
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Ok,
Sire
http://www.littleamericaminis.com/stallions/secret.html
Dam
She is about half way down the page, Little America's Xenon Pianissimo
http://www.littleamericaminis.com/mares/mares6.html
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Those are some nice horses!!
They "look" tobiano. Here is the one of mine that is tested homozygous for both bay & tobiano. He now needs to be tested for LWO, SB1 & Splash 1 (2,3 & 4 are currently only specific lines of stock breeds & TB).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0-5Q7_cVqlP_CeaW3DkMBNjE81m1-ACRJzWivkCqOyXDjnOZgAyJ5TrkQoqswkemU94LP5snFvSTfgdBoiIvKJHDAuO13Lq09ELqSfTavo6_bLAkf6UeGWe10OEMjmN7KQewdgf54uwvYc9K4IbItuCOO4KMb8q2Ob8wG-W_ieV1K0zIaoXRQ-7632Cqzd2Y81urEqoju7nv-IAmw910FPCVMDggRmcb6IoCj2Dv9aY6_h0VXDGNL1AyIMc01rVC24W9mjdNP-giSXnJ8zJXdZmP8JnGCLwSObH2hwOJhFhoRCsduZ3kTmU25K1LXxGioncjgy3ZviziazoXeWIicrWTuJzOecf9IJnlqVGrsB1W5c_HbQ1bvy1Us0rCVOCwOeveD3-jAsmLTtMQCBoImTPFWhbB4O362ynhCJH9JmtOYKkhYNijH18rOS4w7I5ySUE7hZKop5C5-CWyldvWYb_3FhcynyRX6w7Qk8BhEIBk9Xe_iJOe29o-HbV4mOgDpOI6rxlPYrjbvK9XXIzVjFXkQufUp_DGsidCSHAthFrZIfA1BdyqVarn_NpKorjQF5sHXlxBJuWdsux2puRqB-3txzI-xE93yYNDe8YPIb5u4xTN33ehVQ=w500-h375-no?.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/53FWCLolbC2Hea7-5VXD1nGXGC75tYaGUhiQ6T0QujKBGZoQUQSY-rsSBbP1lBikKldtRC0Zwre1FzkcDZKVxQok9uNGk1YAfFsq9EIYiF6nDFb5uyNtL_dRVztbwxHf_2MgnqaaBxQpfoVJOD20VKVIxP4D2iUug2XVEQuBbkAbzdLiMopoDpSfLSmSNLBXklIt-jbLuYMQgMjtpL0QU91yEZICX3Wx5IeVWZB9SFo9wt_G6wmuEbEeYGF4mCN3mGjTTjqXeRetUXQtysZZwv1026Hvy1VSnk8VTtMbDlCpj4vOjc7q9ir3J0z7IABFDiJHSko38R8AIRG-0j1USKdTidmj0-4Wi2p_tTJ8hBnYysdGvvLAG44DgFvSBrYq0Db23-pY9eSeAITm3BrcUc4-cGCj6-p0eLqM1nTI2qerctgjdTZoXkIllN34Tbk9tlFFEQZz8N6-BZIgcUyL1eLxHnyA9_2KRD4WTMerV8UEi9_ws8LCU54TEhDYO5Ndd__VH5MVVFNEG1elfOjgpzCixg8CJ-SXxbs40ojZ4BWb6MxJGr-VObqXBltWc5ZEWUFRvKGxKR7STsqX_H89iqY7SdaPAo_5Xqqlszp3h3VSnJ9fZ32u2w=w500-h375-no?.jpg)
and pics of our homozygous black/homozygous tobiano stallion - clipped and haired -
2000 - head shot only - body shots didn't turn out at all -
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd46/purplepaintpony/AJ%20-%20WF%20Action%20Jackson/b9c6.jpg)
2005 - body shots only
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd46/purplepaintpony/AJ%20-%20WF%20Action%20Jackson/689b.jpg)
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd46/purplepaintpony/AJ%20-%20WF%20Action%20Jackson/63fc.jpg)
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The pic of AJ above, taken in 2005 is showing a little "red" in his ribcage area and in his tail.
In 2008 is when he really turned "red", but the pics don't look nearly as "red" as I remember!
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd46/purplepaintpony/AJ%20-%20WF%20Action%20Jackson/08Jul2AJ82.jpg)
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd46/purplepaintpony/AJ%20-%20WF%20Action%20Jackson/08Jul2AJ84.jpg)
AJ was always, all his life once we purchased him in 1995 @ 3 yrs of age, outside with no stall access to the barn EXCEPT during 1 blizzard in January 2004 in NC. He sheltered between/behind round hay bales or in the trees. A couple of years he did get blanketed when he lost a significant amount of weight himself as he aged.
26 December 2010
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mLDdb5pnae0YQHvoi19mwLcav0_i3748YuKII0rnwUUHP3S2NpyLzJfmN68cHkvtPShiH-5babtKW5lXco2qO_nwjV2dSV4qZBUuJOEFLoMrFiTvgHJer3jY_mQ_drXrX2ZvOPnh34rJn7RzomDjnXdVMu-U6DhmEs5Icn62jfkQlU1KuIQzNrPRfyYqIt7XTtN6hFnwoWmht_Yqubt2SrAC9UiCLok4e-WK9wzlBEnKHHjHvBvaYP4lGSf_yLnyvG_cQwIl-jU4arlwkzrnNlr_ltr7qpu2vfcOmKQh2MubNFDmSgnwE7Pb7mHq5sRE1rZ6zhh9nCmEalE7QxJfQfB1ZSuMdIYKAj2KYl-PDvKB4d2rNCn-YKxABtPjDzYh0sklR8IxUT21jBSasAxpfcMlQEzjYmjHNWysSz6NuO2wHXR2lzj5ymkGwwXFv6a3nc7SN2mt1gcwsb4JD-QretYDytQRkwlWnXQUBF80S5erbwNicIcDcwOSxf_zaNbOT8XCz-UbUwpfbqBF19jHcRNRR8NoHiley8VfzNKXAYqkz66ODzJulGBn2EdyuUOKWnNPiJyxg4ft7BBUg1CiorrpUr_pVKiTQ64vs_VcQ75m9XRFwgln=w281-h500-no?.jpg)
11 January 2011 -
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2QqcZtZ7ejioUn9zo_CBBxh5xJoY7kHVBvNLId49P4ILiaMHwdV14sk83rpa8_BzhekUP-kKzDxAgQCG40hvwCZejsKhmky6EjNsulie32P_HsNV71JX05YsURndN41r1x38PGcVPrHsb2zHmEZWszzaBX4MTrFs0asb6mHcws-VAVmwx3Y0p4gSjrWVHo86zcHmgBSocVxUvW4FJzMMoYA_GEAEhp5Ts6fNT_ubRx-jG-DkrSn4F-5gDgvd7jSXFTYT414li9faNaJc6bY4XpRzUYKxOB4reNtRT-FJppOmGWTctupuCxq8cPv8ZqTjvcyTrZY4OyH-528OXn61ZgyzuGBvQYvLAaTmQ4hJBj2c83bryX7qXiaV-oN6JBjNUliykwqkUHH4tUykPdqW6H8V4T0N6do1pCPwsoSR6FViYat7-niRlt6JX1wKkR_Qdwq4FdfKpqxw_429LyIbndO4kbNz8VlhZpnSoiA4dBsoL9qoa94g-VQkm4NTyIqc671H1mnjuLDMQXbhMBFiM6Mcv0315qWmEr55NLDDczkT7NugcmnqLoShadWkLDtRaBsBdQlhst3kN8jaznZQumQEWxE-KV5u9NqkoC3z9x3KQGylKKfh=w500-h375-no?.jpg)
The snow above both melted and got rained on, turning to solid sheets of ice. We were lucky, none of our ponies broke anything - tho many didn't move much. A lot of the neighboring farms DID - limbs & rib cages when slipping and falling!
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So if I were to test both the stallion and the mare, what should I test for to cover everything?
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Also I know that none of my mares have any tobiano parents for several generations.
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No, nothing up close, but there are some wonderful old lines, many pinto, and I believe almost every horse you have goes back to Rowdy, and your stallion has Falabella in the mix as well.
I printed out your AMHA pedigrees on all your horses, and at the bottom of each pedigree are the Show Results for all the horses with Show Records with the AMHA. Lots of nice old lines that are well known!
One of your girls is only registered AMHR, which only gives a few generations, and you have to go through many pedigrees to actually get a complete picture, and most of those go back to the AMHA at some point.
But you have some wonderful lines, and several pinto lines running through, so the "genes" may well be there -- even if not visually!
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No, nothing up close, but there are some wonderful old lines, many pinto, and I believe almost every horse you have goes back to Rowdy, and your stallion has Falabella in the mix as well.
I printed out your AMHA pedigrees on all your horses, and at the bottom of each pedigree are the Show Results for all the horses with Show Records with the AMHA. Lots of nice old lines that are well known!
One of your girls is only registered AMHR, which only gives a few generations, and you have to go through many pedigrees to actually get a complete picture, and most of those go back to the AMHA at some point.
But you have some wonderful lines, and several pinto lines running through, so the "genes" may well be there -- even if not visually!
Thank You so much!
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You are VERY welcome!!
And we'll look and see what tests to do and let you know!
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Has anyone used the Animal Genetics tests? I have heard some tests are not as reliable. Just curious if anyone has had any experience with them.
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Yes, Animal Genetics is the testing site I recommend to all. They are reliable and reasonable.
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For quality color testing, either Animal Genetics in FL or UC Davis in CA.
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Yes, Animal Genetics is the testing site I recommend to all. They are reliable and reasonable.
I use them exclusively. The tests that I do appear to be fine. Now, the results are back (emailed to you) in 48 hours - VERY sweet...
The tests that are not considered "real" are tests for brown (have been proven to be wrong - papers now out saying why). I don't believe Animal Genetics have ever offered that one (but may have years ago).
There are some new color tests going to be coming out - think someone published early - really upsetting some others in the color genetics field. I don't fully understand, but it is with white patterning and I "THINK" it's to do with specific breed/bloodlines in full size horses. I COULD be wrong on that one. Know that the one genetic FB site I follow had quite a bit of chatter on that last week.
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Thank You!
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I sent in color tests recently, I am hoping to get results next week. So if anyone wants to make a final guess they are welcome to. I was also able to figure out that her dam is registered as a buckskin, (although in the only picture I saw she appeared to be palomino.)
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My mare is black. My stallion is negative for LWO. And now I have another question :-\ ;D. One of my other mares has recently grown an interesting pattern on her back. The white is increasing and the raised dapples have just recently appeared. She is 3. Her sire is a buckskin and her dam is a smokey black. Is this the start of lacing?
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Well the pics didn't post so here we go again
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Another
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I am hopeless with Colors , so will leave it to the experts.
Ill have a guess and say it is lacing and from my understanding (which is limited when it comes to coloring etc) the white will increase over the years ?
Did either of her parents have lacing ?
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From the pictures I have seen they do not appear to have it.
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It doesnt look like lacing to me but she does look to have dapples. :D
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Most times in lacing in appaloosas, you see a less wide lacing. But technically, "lacing" can also include a "giraffe" patterning which this looks to be. [Lacing - lacy white markings on the horse's back in a reticulated pattern like a giraffe's] Some people even call the small appaloosa blankets that are lacey looking as lacing.
I have also seen this called "reverse dappling" in pinto horses. Here's a good blog site with pictures on what they are calling reverse dappling: http://equinetapestry.com/tag/lacing/
Since hers is definitely large patterning, it is more of the giraffe-type lacing. I'm posting a few pictures of this giraffe-style lacing as examples.
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Thank You. I am excited to see what she looks like in a few years!
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So will this grow overtime Diane ?
Elizabeth it will be interesting to see how she looks in a few years :) I would be excited every time she is shedding to see whats changed underneath her winter coat :)
How did you all start learning about color genetics? I know google has just about everything in regards to this and that for dummies, Is there one for Horse coloring ?
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Yes, in many cases it continues to grow over time and can almost cover the horse. I'll upload a more "typical" type of lacing that people are used to seeing, and then another appaloosa with a very unique coat pattern. How would you like an appy with this coat pattern.
Appaloosas can have some very strange coat patterns because of all the modifiers and "mismarks" that can suppress different genes. Some really unique things can happen.
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I would LOVE an Appaloosa with that pattern. It's called a peacock Appaloosa right? Kind of funny that this mare is getting the lacing since I cannot find any tobiano/Appaloosa in her perigee for quite a few generations.
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That is really cool markings :)